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Discussion Starter #1
while running longer distances 1/2 mile or so

the car started to buck and hesitate
i found this was from failed oil seals around the spark plug tubes

they were feeding oil into the cylinders
causing oil based detonation

no matter how conservative joe tuned this
oil based detonation is a killer

note little aluminum bits on the plug electrodes and very black inner surfaces
DSCN0779 (2) by Barry Belgard, on Flickr

all were similar
DSCN0769 (2) by Barry Belgard, on Flickr

the valve cover plug seals were not designed for 16lb boost
esp for more than a few seconds

they will eventually leak
and therein begins our meth story







meth/water is a very good cleaning agent
i have heard it mentioned it's like "steam cleaning your combustion chambers"

if we can't stop the oil from leaking, and it's a tiny amount
maybe we can keep it from accumulating and causing trouble


so this install is not for power
but engine protection


thats for my wife
everybody else here knows better
and joe is already planning on upping the boost
SAFELY :cool2:
:47:


trying Shanovers vc mod hope that helps too




BTW
this was not much of a problem on the track
your not holding it wot for 15 plus seconds

and in the 1/8 mile it was infrequent

however at the 1/4 and esp 1/2 mile
it becomes problematic for drag racers
imo
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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Discussion Starter #3
now we get to the operational reality

how and when is it best to turn it on

two most common methods


trigger operation
like you would turn a n2o system on
[say 7/8ths throttle opening, allows for back peddling at the launch]

boost pressure switches,
that activate spray at a particular psi limit
[say for me, 50% of full boost, an 8lb activation point]

i have a trigger switch


next how big a nozzle do we need


1-14 gal/hour available from cooling mist
 

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Discussion Starter #5
even though i have a trigger mechanism
[my n2o controller]

i believe a boost activated system will work best in my interests
[i felt i didn't need spray when not in boost]

their are two that are common

the one i favor is brass and has boost settings
by Nason
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/water-injection-parts/1-adjustable-pressure-switch.html

the other is plastic and must be set by gauge
https://www.coolingmist.com/product-page/water-methanol-injection-boost-pressure-switch

anybody out there, care to share their experience with these?
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
so we have an activation device chosen,
and now on to nozzle size

many calculators are on the web
one i like best
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/49-nozzles

using a variety of calculators gave me a range of
375-482 ml/min

rounding up
using a d05 nozzle from "devils own"
550ml/min











btw

boost activation device i choose
going to start spray at 5lb
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/water-injection-parts/1-adjustable-pressure-switch.html

using an old 150psi cooling mist pump [new, never used, but 8 years old]
i got the meth sytem for the vq
but never got to install it
 

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Not with these in particular, but going by the pictures, the brass one could be mounted directly in the intake manifold, if you drill and tap a 1/8 NPT thread in it, the other one looks to be connected by a hose. Most of the pressure switches I have worked wtih have been much higher pressure than these. As for quality, no opinion, but the adjustability that you do NOT need to take it off and hook it to a pressure source to set would be a big plus. Also, having it mounted directly on the intake manifold would give you one less failure point (the hose connection).

They both look to use standard microswitches, which are usually tested into the millions of cycles before failure. those are very reliable and well established, used in all areas at our plant. Their only drawback, is they will not handle a lot of amperage, so we use them to trigger a relay that is rated at a higher amperage, as per your drawing above.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
next up

tank size

since i recalculated ml/min to l/hr

i know i will use about 80L of meth/water per hour of use
[approx 500ml/min]

about 1/10 gal of meth for every min of wot at the drags
[if a 1/2mile takes 15sec, thats 4 runs per 1/10 gal,
a 1/2 gal will cover 20 runs]

so for drags even 2qts for a tank would be adequate

but for street with spray stating at 6lb
maybe 1 gal would do
2.5gal to play safe?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
final theoretical step
where does the tank and pump go?

obviously this has to do with tank size

but
in my case, even a 2.5 gal tank will fit in the engine compartment sans battery

so
most common locations
mount in
engine compartment

or
trunk

:thinking:

no decision yet
still studying options and advantages
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Not with these in particular, but going by the pictures, the brass one could be mounted directly in the intake manifold, if you drill and tap a 1/8 NPT thread in it, the other one looks to be connected by a hose. Most of the pressure switches I have worked wtih have been much higher pressure than these. As for quality, no opinion, but the adjustability that you do NOT need to take it off and hook it to a pressure source to set would be a big plus. Also, having it mounted directly on the intake manifold would give you one less failure point (the hose connection).

They both look to use standard microswitches, which are usually tested into the millions of cycles before failure. those are very reliable and well established, used in all areas at our plant. Their only drawback, is they will not handle a lot of amperage, so we use them to trigger a relay that is rated at a higher amperage, as per your drawing above.
now we are up to the electrics
note the pump itself can draw 10amps so it will need heavier wire and a relay too

so two relays one for micro switch one for pump?
in the diagram pump and switch run off one relay


next this will put a strong load on the fuel pump as well
so a wiring upgrade and relay required here too
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchResultsPageCmd?Ntt=fuel+pump+wiring+upgrade&requestYear=&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&year=&make=&model=&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false
 

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Discussion Starter #15
in summery
here's where we are
we have chosen and obtained
a 150psi pump, clear tubing,and a one way valve
from cooling mist
IMAG0277 by Barry Belgard, on Flickr

we have chosen to use boost activation with a nason boost sensor
[possibly mounted on the intake manifold]

a nozzle capable of 500ml/min @100psi
a d05 from devils own

we have calculated that a tank size between 2qts and 2.5gal will be adequate

where to put it depends on the choice of 100% meth
[must be used in small quantities
and best for race day use]

or
at best, a 25% mix available at walmart
cheap and easy to find
 

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now we are up to the electrics
note the pump itself can draw 10amps so it will need heavier wire and a relay too

so two relays one for micro switch one for pump?
in the diagram pump and switch run off one relay


no, the switch triggers (provides the ground circuit) for the relay to operate, In the diagram, the positive side of the relay hooks to the battery, the negative side of the relay goes through the switch to ground, only one relay needed
In other words, you have a low amperage coil in the relay, which closes the contacts in the relay itself that are rated for much higher amperage.


next this will put a strong load on the fuel pump as well
so a wiring upgrade and relay required here too
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchResultsPageCmd?Ntt=fuel+pump+wiring+upgrade&requestYear=&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&year=&make=&model=&submodel=&engine=&Nrpp=&No=&persistYmm=false

That may be, but if you run a surge tank with its own pump, this will be wired separately from the stock in tank pump, and the wiring would have to be appropriate for the amperage chosen. If you choose to go with the stock pump location, and get the 355lph pump, it could work as well, my only concern would be running out of fuel in the canister over a long run. It hasnt seemed to have done that so far with you tho.

All that said, the basic formula of more power needing more fuel should hold true, increasing boost will need additional fuel to avoid going lean.
 

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final theoretical step
where does the tank and pump go?

obviously this has to do with tank size

but
in my case, even a 2.5 gal tank will fit in the engine compartment sans battery

so
most common locations
mount in
engine compartment

or
trunk

:thinking:

no decision yet
still studying options and advantages

Keeping the pump and tank lower than the injection point will help prevent siphoning. The way mine is run IF my one way valve were to fail gravity will pull the fluid down and away from the nozzle. I put my system in the truck to keep it out of the elements. I used to have the pump near where a CAI filter would be. over time it got pretty beat up. the hose fittings wouldnt grab the hose tightly and some large object hit the pump and cracked the housing. over time water got into the pump and corroded all the bearings and it eventually seized.

You will be pulling fuel, and it can be a decent bit depending on nozzle size and mixture. Fuel injector size wont be an issue
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Keeping the pump and tank lower than the injection point will help prevent siphoning

Thank you, very good point and i didn't take it into account
i see that type of mount in the AEM tank mount pic above

I put my system in the truck to keep it out of the elements.
seems to be the place required by most racing organizations too

longer lines , and if i remember you ran them under the car next to the fuel line
is that correct?

thanks for the tips really helps
 

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Discussion Starter #19
That may be, but if you run a surge tank with its own pump, this will be wired separately from the stock in tank pump, and the wiring would have to be appropriate for the amperage chosen. If you choose to go with the stock pump location, and get the 355lph pump, it could work as well, my only concern would be running out of fuel in the canister over a long run. It hasnt seemed to have done that so far with you tho.

All that said, the basic formula of more power needing more fuel should hold true, increasing boost will need additional fuel to avoid going lean.
Thanks for clearing that up,
this is coming together nicely


couldn't afford both at once [surge and meth]
just running a full tank, and the big pump,
that will be rewired for added amperage
for now

this like n20, is turning from a 200 buck install to 1k project
have to sit on joe

not intending 40 dyno hrs to set this up for max power
[which looks like near 500hp with a cool motor on e85/gas mix]

if i could run straight e85 and inject pure meth
lol

would take huge injectors and i would lose streetability

[i can't handle 360 at the wheels, i'm still all over the place on these tires
and my block would look like swiss cheese]



talking to people here there is controversy about what happens if it fails

trying not to increase power, don't need the extra boost
but joe is afire now
we may see this as part of futre turbo kits

been studying the b29 bomber systems that used this in wwII
it was primarily for detonation resistance

thats how i wish to use it too

after much reading it seems to have been an asset to the very finicky b29 motors [they apparently were terribly unreliable and this seemed to help prolong their life]
 

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Keeping the pump and tank lower than the injection point will help prevent siphoning

Thank you, very good point and i didn't take it into account
i see that type of mount in the AEM tank mount pic above

I put my system in the truck to keep it out of the elements.
seems to be the place required by most racing organizations too

longer lines , and if i remember you ran them under the car next to the fuel line
is that correct?

thanks for the tips really helps

yes my line runs with the fuel lines. in the bracket that holds the fuel lines. you can see the line in between the two fuel lines
IMG_20170313_145943.jpg
 
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